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Post by twistedangel on Jun 23, 2013 2:16:49 GMT -5
kk i guess most of us are/have been members on other poetry sites an i really like this place but so far its failings are lack of current members getting involved..or newbies coming an all to quickly leaving..why ?..cos is very very quiet with only a handful of regular posters we all need are egos stroked with comments..lack of comments means lack of interest..so members probly drift away does this place need a bit of a rethink on how it does stuff ? now i aint wanting to tread on anyones toes but here a few ideas .wotcha think ? 1. only allow logged in members to view the actual poetry thread sites 2. only allow logged in members to post..dont agree with anonymous posting TBH 3. somtimes even a autobot welcome message to newbies is better than nothing..so far newbies are kinda left to flounder on their own..no wonder they come an go 4. moderators...where are you ? so far Aish has been the only active one..an yeah i know real life somtimes gets in the way BUT SERIOUSLY !!! cant even spare the odd 30 mins any site is only as good as its members..with well over 1000 members i been here maybe 2 or 3 months now an only seen a handful of active ones but members need to be bullied..soz persuaded..to participate hopefully regularly an thats gotta first come from mods an 2nd from other members..is a bit like back scratching init..if you make people welcome an comment on their pieces they in turn will comment on yours..or like me at least try to not everyone is as gobby as me..believe it or not some peoples actually a bit shy or nervous..go figure..some how we ALL gotta make everyone feel welcome an get involved rant over
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Post by LonelyForsaken on Jun 23, 2013 3:27:51 GMT -5
You make some good points. This is a rather unique site. Our long term returning members are different from all other sits I have been to. I’ll take quality over quantity any day. I do feel your frustration for the lack of participation though. Sometimes, we do get spurts of group activity but it seems rare for three or more of us to get a dialog going. Aish is fairly consistently active as well as me. I’m sort of an honorary Admin. I think “Staff” is my official standing. See those five pics on the left? Each with a pic of an admin? One is blank with the word Staff in it. I was asked to be an admin and take ownership of an available category but I feel I had to refuse.Not because of the responsibility but because of any form of ownership relation. I do communicate with admins when I feel attention is needed. My reasons – I love Dark Star. The problem is that whenever I take ownership of ANYTHING I love it is taken away from me. This is a consistency I cannot deny. I have been an admin at two other sites that are now archived. Beyond web sites… well, not much survives my possession unless it holds little real importance to me. I have an endless list of examples but I digress. We have the three to one rule to both encourage participation and reduce the platitudes. It seems to weed out the vanity seekers because it takes a real effort on the writers part to post their own work. It’s a really good and effective rule IMO but it does seem to reduce membership and participation, but in a good way. This site requires patience. You yourself recently commented on “Shadow Dancer” in precisely the way I hoped to see. I posted it just over a year ago.
I do hope Leash takes a look at this soon and I like this one a lot; “2. only allow logged in members to post..dont agree with anonymous posting TBH”
I wonder if this one is possible and think it a very good idea. I have been trying to fill this duty myself when I can but an autobot would make sure everyone who registered would see the rules and be welcomed. However, I like the personal touch when a Staff member does the welcoming. 3. somtimes even a autobot welcome message to newbies is better than nothing..so far newbies are kinda left to flounder on their own..no wonder they come an go
I do have mixed emotions about the next one myself. I love seeing our admins here and miss them but I know some of the behind the scene real life situations and understand their absence. Recent births, breakups, moving, etc.. “4. moderators...where are you ? so far Aish has been the only active one..an yeah i know real life somtimes gets in the way BUT SERIOUSLY !!! cant even spare the odd 30 mins” 30 mins is not sufficient but it would help.
“not everyone is as gobby as me..believe it or not some peoples actually a bit shy or nervous..go figure..some how we ALL gotta make everyone feel welcome an get involved” – This seems especially true here. We attract the “darker” characters. We often feel like we don’t fit in anywhere or can’t be appreciated for who we are but are more accepting in many areas than others. It’s a conundrum. How do we get the shy more involved frequently? We try but… we are darker characters too.
I’m glad you brought this up and I love the added life you have brought with you. You definitely liven up the place. Be patient. I’m sure you’ll make a difference. :-)
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Post by Aish on Jun 23, 2013 14:30:04 GMT -5
I completely agree with only logged in members being able to read and post.
As for the rest - the boards were quite active years back. What I refer to as the Core Members have all pretty much moved on and have busy lives. Some of them rarely write. Some found other outlets.
I've noticed that even on huge cites boasting 10k + members the real critique and discussions are by the same handful or two. The majority of people want entry accolades and simple "Oh you are brilliant" type shit. I'm guilty of dumbing my own approach down just so I don't run people off, and I'm NOT a well rounded poetry nazi. Places like PFFA spit people out. My fave place on the web other than here is The Pig Pen.
One member I respect tremendously and would give my left arm to have as a mod is Mic. That dude knows his shit. Any time he visits a piece of my work I come out the better for it.
The site needs more traffic, and we have fallen pages back on google for "dark poetry" searches. Hopefully I will be trending you that soon. W have aFB page, but that hasn't done anything for us. The Twitter acct is doa, that's my fault cause I hate twitter.
LF, Leash asked you to admin?? I thought it was a mod request? I'm grateful for your dedication. You're here way more than I am and do a great job welcoming newbies and giving them links to the posting guidelines. Therein lies another problem - members who want a showcase, not a constructive community.
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Post by Aish on Jun 23, 2013 14:34:34 GMT -5
I haven't sent a mass email in a few months. Sometimes that brings a few members back.
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Post by LonelyForsaken on Jun 24, 2013 0:44:48 GMT -5
“LF, Leash asked you to admin?? I thought it was a mod request?” – I’m sure you are right about that. You know me, not one for labels and a bad memory for details. I was just flattered she asked. I hadn’t thought of the difference between mod and admin. It doesn’t matter though. I was a moderator at one(my all time fave before DS) and administrator at the other of the two that died. Funny thing, it was dying when I found it but I nearly single handedly revived it. Spent all my time there and we built an awesome modification to a game. The original game manufacturer had to make a decision between us and a competitor. We lost. Ever play X3? “I'm grateful for your dedication.” – I know, and thanks. I also know how much DS means to you and some others. For me it was love at first sight. Wish I had found you all during its conception but that may have been too tempting. It is in part the love we all have that I can’t risk taking any form of ownership/possession. I was so tempted to accept but I can’t and won’t risk DS. It means too much to too many and to test my hypothesis would be selfish. I can still act like a mod and do my best to help. I just can’t be a part of it officially or in a way that allows me to think or feel I am a part of it. I live vicariously. It is my damned curse. I lost everything before I realized that and I still have nothing that means anything to me. Not for a lack of trying either. I saw a cartoon once. A big offish character picks up his small friend and sais; “I will love him, and hold him, and pet him, and feed him, and… pretty soon he had X’s for eyes. Sigh! I lose more friends that way than a care to remember. I can love and help but I can’t hold dear or too near. I am LonelyForsaken. That name was not by chance but fate and I can’t even see the moon tonight.
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Post by _black phoenix_ on Jun 26, 2013 19:19:28 GMT -5
Sooo much going on in this thread, ill see what I can remember I wanted to touch on... I completely agree with only logged in members being able to read and post. We tried this for about half a year and new members dropped to almost nothing. This was back when we were gaining easy 10 a day, before the total member number got wiped. Personally, I wont join a forum if I have to sign up to view whats going on and I know many others will miss out on DS for having the same tendency. I used to spend 5-15 hours a week on site promotion back when we were booming. Its a lot of work to get our google/search engine standing high, plus the requirements for it to rise change often, so what worked 5 years ago doesnt any more. I simply dont have the time for this anymore as I work much, much more and have more responsibilities. I hope im not jumping into this thread with just negativities and brick walls instead of solutions. I dont have time, even 30 minutes each day, to put in which is really sad. Its harder still knowing that I havent been writing in forever... Seems to make me sad reading poetry now. ANYWAYS, Im going to do some thinking and come back to this thread. Im hoping that with my developing pregnancy and hate of cold and snow that Ill be on more in the winter(ya, i know, thats still so far away.) I just really dont have the time or dedication to be here as much as I should, and I know how much that can affect things.. It drove me nuts on one of my favourite forums that died out years ago. Ok done rambling. Ill be back. And in a better mood with good ideas.
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Post by LonelyForsaken on Jun 26, 2013 22:30:12 GMT -5
Leash – You’re pregnant? That is so Awesome! I’m so happy for you.
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Post by Aish on Jun 27, 2013 0:27:53 GMT -5
Sooo much going on in this thread, ill see what I can remember I wanted to touch on... I completely agree with only logged in members being able to read and post. We tried this for about half a year and new members dropped to almost nothing. This was back when we were gaining easy 10 a day, before the total member number got wiped. Personally, I wont join a forum if I have to sign up to view whats going on and I know many others will miss out on DS for having the same tendency. i remember, I think I chalked that up more to us asking potential members to fill out an application and submit samples of their poetry, lol. I'm the one who wiped out half our member list, I apologize for that, but in my defense they had been inactive for over two years and had less than fifteen posts. I used to spend 5-15 hours a week on site promotion back when we were booming. Its a lot of work to get our google/search engine standing high, plus the requirements for it to rise change often, so what worked 5 years ago doesnt any more. I simply dont have the time for this anymore as I work much, much more and have more responsibilities. I used to manipulate Google myself for the site, but have been solely logging in on my phone the past few months and I don't have much time either.
Leash and I are a team, the mods are a team and we all try to work together for the benefit of Dark Star. It's a labor of love, one we do for free. Just because we aren't here all the time doesn't mean we don't give a shit. My oldest son has stage 3 kidney failure and a baby on the way. He isn't my only responsibility. Many of the members here continue to be my biggest source of encouragement and positive energy outside of the site. Leash has always been there for me, even when she was losing her own father. I can say the same of Val, Veritas, and LF.
Angel and Simon have both express a desire for the site to be more active and Angel you made some good points. How DO we get members actively involved so more than just a handful of people post and comment? Suggestions, please.
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Post by LonelyForsaken on Jun 27, 2013 1:16:00 GMT -5
Leash – “Personally, I wont join a forum if I have to sign up to view whats going on…†– I agree. We must be able to read what is posted without logging in but maybe we could limit posting to members only. Most sites work this way and I have joined many to respond to a post that captured my interest. I’m not sure it would make a difference though. We don’t get a lot of guest posts.
One idea that comes to mind is stickies. Stickies are a way to keep a thread at the top of a category. At other sites we used them to bring attention to ideas that admins and moderators felt where a good idea or deserved attention for whatever reason. It often got others with the skills needed to help develop an idea that the inventor didn’t have. I’m a bit opposed to this idea here because it does promote egoism but it is just the thing that might attract and keep writers more active. I hate to say it but poets do want attention. Even I have to admit that I would not hate to see my work showcased in “Featured Poem†occasionally. LOL Maybe we could make a sort of game out of it using a pole or vote system. This would definitely appeal to many and promote more activity from members.
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Post by twistedangel on Jun 27, 2013 11:09:30 GMT -5
well firstly i dont think newbies should be left to sink or swim on their own..yeah i know real life gets busy at times..but they is other mods/admin other than youselves surley ? BUT it aint all down to the mods either OTHER older members should be getting newbies more involved as well dunno how you organise youselves but maybe 1 mod can look after 2 boards each ? IMO uncommented writes is unacceptable..looks kinda bad (even if they are really bad poems LOL) also if those boards is failing cos the mod in question aint pulling their weight you can sack em an get another one in this way the mod in question could hopefully coax others into responding more in their own writes an comments on others..make it chilled an upbeat in the comments but still keep the crit comments is easy..crit is hard to do properly..somthing i still gotta learn to do also how about a competition once a month..members vote for their fave poem an leave a comment as to why they liked it ? then the winning poem can be featured on a winners board thing is once people start commenting/chatting across the boards there (hopefully) becomes a bit of a club feel to the place..that way members is more inclined to get involved but its the mods that gotta start the ball rolling...after that is down to all of us to keep it rolling
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Post by Aish on Jul 25, 2013 16:03:29 GMT -5
This is the breakdown: Leash and I are admins, but the site belongs to Leash. It was her idea and hard work that made this place. Veritas is currently our only global moderator and Valkyrie Goddess is the Challenges board moderator. LF is basically like he said an honorary moderator. That's it for staff atm. It has been different at different times.
This isn't meant to be a rude statement: We do have a welcome thread and all members should make a better effort to pay attention to it, myself included. The site is pretty straightforward. We have an info and support board newbies can access. I'm all for welcoming new members and everyone staying active, but babysitting newbies isn't our primary function. IMO if people are unable to read the rules or start posting without me or a mod telling them to then they shouldn't be joining forums. Forums are built around activity. I personally have never joined any forum expecting members to automatically fawn over my joining. I agree that no post should go without replies. Every single member should be making replies, that is the main reason we have the three-to-one posting rule.
We have always had a sticky function. It is mainly used for tips and things like the Let's Take A Look At You Thread.
We haven't featured a poem in a long time, over a year. Leash and I have discussed it recently. Featured poems are generally a decision made between us or just by Leash. I'm open to members making recommendations for new featured poems. We only feature exceptional work. That doesn't mean we haven't felt there were exceptional pieces this year.
As far as contests go, we do have a challenges board, those are pretty much ongoing. Any member can start one. The forum recently underwent a major format change. We have plug-ins available that would allow us to award virtual trophies. On one hand I like the idea of members being able to post their own competitions. II also wouldn't mind a dedicated contest where poems were nominated and a poll set up to award a recognized poem each month. But I'm torn when it comes to adding that contest/trophy feature. Here's why- lots of poetry forums use that feature and the result is members with 40 trophies who act like they are God's gift to writing when in fact they suck. So I'm a little leery, but I understand that it makes poetry more interactive and fun. Any ideas how to prevent nepotism, poor judgement, or lack of entrants? How do we elevate the way poetry is judged without being dictatorial? How do we engage more members without being babysitters?
What about poetry is vibrant to each of us? What about discussion threads and games? What about forming friendships with members? How about personally inviting others? In the 9 1/2 years I've been here lots of members have left due to ego (theirs wasn't stroked enough) and laziness (refusal to participate and/or develope skill).
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Post by Aish on Jul 25, 2013 16:44:22 GMT -5
I will work on setting up an automatic welcome pm.
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Post by LonelyForsaken on Jul 25, 2013 21:27:41 GMT -5
“In the 9 1/2 years I've been here lots of members have left due to ego (theirs wasn't stroked enough) and laziness (refusal to participate and/or develope skill).” – Personally, I believe this is what makes “us” different from all other writer’s forums and we must take care not to abandon this principle. Quality over quantity. We all have accounts at other writer’s sites. We know the difference. I have not bothered to log into another in two or three years. Why? Platitudes. I want honest thought and here is where I get that. It’s not easy but anything worth having is not easy. It takes work but my skills have improved only because of the honesty I have found here. I’ve also met some really great people here. We are not normal and I know I’m not alone in saying I like it that way. There are more people here that I wish were in my real life than are on my Facebook. Some of those are in my real life and I’d trade them in for a few here. Egos are not good things. My worst online experience was caused by a huge ego. One man, admittedly he had some awesome skills, destroyed the hard work of dozens of people with his ego. In retrospect, we let him become too important to our project. In the end his ego accomplished nothing but the destruction of all our years of efforts. We let him take over because we felt we had no other choice but his ego got in the way. I recently went back and took a look at that old group and guess what, many of the contributors I grew to know and love have gone on to do amazing things but he is nowhere to be found. Aish raises the question of balance. How do we increase membership and activity while holding to this quality? Honestly, I don’t know. Quality is a cut above. Cream rises to the top and there is inherently a lot less of it than the bulk. It gets lonely here sometimes and I miss members I have met here more than I let on. I have followed some to other sites because I wanted to stay in contact but I have always come home/here. It gets frustrating sometimes but if not for the quality of our members it could not affect me so. I’m reluctant to change anything myself. Angel, you’re a godsend IMO. You bring an energy with you I appreciate more than I can say and you’re a better writer than you seem to think you are. You are not afraid to speak your mind and you actually do. When I open the DS home page I look for your name in the recently logged in members as I do Aish, Leash, Veritas, Mike, Ris, Val, Reaper, Ankh, Flow, Mick, Mic2, Shame, Moonstone, and I really wish Colorless would come back. There are others like Jaded I look for too but they don’t participate like you do. I really miss Redemption, Atomicparakeet, Mastershadow, Porcelain, and Bloodtrails, to name a few of our shyer members. And there are those like Fourtimefelon who I like and relate closely to but can’t categorize. Not shy but not around much either. And Vika, a promising writer but she didn’t stay long. Sigh! There are others but my memory is not as good as it used to be. Sorry. Oh, and it’s been too long, Time Spinner and Hyde. And I did not mention even one personal friend who I coaxed into joining because they all disappointed me by not staying. The point is that there are a lot of us but DS does take a back seat to real life. If I had a real life I would not be here so much either. LOL
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Post by twistedangel on Jul 27, 2013 1:16:52 GMT -5
cheers but if am 'godsent' then gods a shit cos surley he would of sent me somwhere better...like Barbados i reckon any site will lose 80% of its members quickly..natural wastage..those with ego problems will soon go anyways another 10 to 15%..the rest will stay IF other members respond/comment in a reasonable time..thats down to all of us to do..soz but waiting a month for a comment is wayyy to long spesh for a newbie trying to 'fit in' i cant crit but i can comment an replies should have a bit of both..a comment followed by crit is a more approachable way of doing that IMO "i really like wot you is saying blah blah blah ..but have you thought about doing this blah blah blah"..sites like Pig Pen is a line by line assassination of you poems an tho good crit somtimes is a very 'unwelcoming' feeling spesh to newbies banter is also very important an havin a laugh..this i can also do ..it also helps not just knowing a member a bit better but also where they is coming from in their writing some poetry forums are just machines either churning out 'crit' or back slapping both as bad as each other poetry is about people so in the end it should also be a kinda social site as well...tho if anyone starts sending 'likes' 'friend requests' stoopid farm game requests an comments about wot you had for dinner i'll block ya
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Post by Aish on Jul 27, 2013 14:26:13 GMT -5
Angel, any site is a numbers game, true enough. There have been years here where we had over thirty members logged in at any given time. I'm trying to look at this quiet moment as a transitional period.
Thanks to the site update we have LOTS of new features to play with. For example members can now follow each other and like poems or comments. I mentioned the competitions and trophies because I feel like it would be a good edition, but I want to avoid some of the pitfalls I've seen other places. I 'm also interested in implementing other genres, such as ekphrastic, found, and collage poetry. Maybe even a spoken word competition from time to time.
Personally, I think the Pig Pen is a great site. The resources and knowledge are immense. Without real critique, sometimes brutal, we don't grow. I used to mod there. The aggressive nature of some of the newer staff isn't my cup of tea.
We have kind of always been in the middle here. Constructive, but not, er, academic. We do like to have fun and none of us see eye to eye, lol.
Is it just me, or did the change over eat the sand box?
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